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Capitalism vs. Socialism a Short History Lesson/ Behind the Occupy Wall Street Protests

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Comments (28)

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  1. UpStalinsArse says:

    Marxism, Socialism, Communism, are mental diseases, a sign of mental illness.
    Marxists, Socialists, Communists, surrender their ability to reason, for illusion, delusion, and lies….

  2. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    Last check-in, “Occupy Together” now lists over 125 ongoing, planned or likely “Occupy” events across the United States. DJ, my friend, you’ve earned a special place in my heart. Keep laughing at us as long as you can manage it. Be sure to let us know when, for some odd reason that you cannot quite put your finger on, the likes of me are not quite as funny as you originally thought we were. ;)

  3. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    DJ, Enjoy, here’s a FOX a news interview of one “simpleton” occupier that will never eventually air on Foxed-up News: http://youtu.be/6yrT-0Xbrn4

  4. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    DJ,
    1.) You wrote: “To the troll hogging the page here…” I’ll assume you me me as others are choosing not to leave a comment. (?) I did not realize you somehow limited comments. (?) From me or any other. Why do you do that? I suggest you might open your page up for all to comment freely. If they care to. Seems like a bit of an administrative blunder not to, or more likely, negative characterization as a distraction from pertinent issues. (?)

    2.) I can handle any exposure. Bring it. Your comment, “The pattern is there, you just can’t handle the exposure apparently.” The comment shines more light on the nature of the writer of the comment… than it does on the target of the comment.

    3.) I have a photo of a lonely protester holding an anti-Obama sign. I took the photo myself. Whatever your argument tried to make, wait. What argument does that argument attempt? That Obama organized the occupations? I think a reasonable person would recognize your conclusion is “really reaching.” There were no anti-Perry/Romney/etc. signs in anywhere that I’ve seen. None. So, obviously, they are behind the occupations? I’ll send you a link if you really need to see an anti-Obama sign in the middle of an occupation protest and if it would prove, employing your own logic, that Perry/Romney/etc. were instead the occupation organizers. Let me know if you really need a link to it. I don’t think its worth the two minutes it would take to make your point moot.

    4.) You wrote: “…explain how none of those proven bailouts … are not mentioned…” Look. Reasonable people understand Obama inherited Bush’s mess. Bush allowed 5 banks to trade 95% of all credit default swaps on the derivatives market between 2001-2008. Those five banks grew the “market value” of those trades from $1 trillion (the all time record high at the time) to $62 trillion completely unregulated during Bush’s watch. Bush allowed these banks, too big to fail, according to Bush’s TARP initiative advanced in the final months of his presidency, to gamble high stakes they did not have for his 8 years. Only people that deny facts play this as “an Obama thing.” Cut the crap or I’ll find somebody else to challenge that has some sense of history and more observant and grounded with facts. Bush walked out of the White House leaving the financial markets burning to the ground. Somebody had to put out those fires. You bring to mind an arsonist railing against the firefighters.

    5.) You wrote: “….then when they do show up in the beginning, not one simpleton could tell anyone what their demands were or why they were there…” You think the “simpletons” showed up for no reason? Seriously. Who made you God and gave you authority to determine that “the simpletons” somehow needed to “voice a demand” before they democratically decided what their demands were? That’s YOUR measurement of validity. Our measurement for validity has been to allow demands to congeal through a process, democratically. Sorry if that’s not good enough for you… you’ll just have to wait.

    6.) Enjoy your laughs watching the videos you mentioned you were watching and laughing at. We both know exactly what’s really brewing. Let’s chat again after the coming weekend. In he longer run, I’m quite sure that “we simpletons” are about to completely amaze you. As we mark off the milestones, I’ll take special joy in sharing with all specifically your characterizations.

  5. DJ Redman says:

    FYI to the troll hogging the page here: is your reading comprehension really poor?
    This is also right out of the very same Chicago community organizing handbook that now has inserted a man into our White House. Coincidence? Not hardly, unless you are really naive and totally uninformed today.

    The pattern is there, you just can’t handle the exposure apparently.

    These Wall Street protests have Obama written all over them. The protesters are carrying signs against the 2008 G.W. Bush TARP bailouts, (which were drafted and passed through a Democratic Senate and House at the time, by the way ) yet not one single protester was seen carrying a single sign protesting any of Barack Obama’s numerous bailouts of GM, Chrysler, big banks, Wall Street and the failed $826 billion stimulus bill. Not one. Coincidence? Not hardly.

    I researched all of your pages on the web where your own pictures were and could not find one critical of Barack Hussein Obama. Not one. looking at the above excerpt, explain how none of those proven bailouts, crony-capitalism and taxpayer fraud committed by Obama and his Chicago handlers are not mentioned in last weekends protests? No elite staff? SEIU, Sharpton, AFL-CIO, etc etc, busing in people to try to make it look like a grand movement. Lunatics saying this is their Arab Spring? How many have you been bombed or shot?

    Get real. Bragging about being arrested? Begging for media coverage, then when they do show up in the beginning, not one simpleton could tell anyone what their demands were or why they were there. As one clown said, ” Cause our Democracy has been turned into capitalism”. Yup he ALMOST got your generic parroted talking points right. Folks in a bank in LA, protesting the fact that they did not pay their mortgage, and when the bank forecloses, it is somehow to be the evil banks fault? Get real. On and on with the falsehoods of a bunch of wanna-be socialists wanting other people to give them their hard-earned wealth while they sit on their asses. You people have made for some great laughs in the videos we are seeing.

    • Lincoln says:

      Your posts are significantly over the top lambasting the other side, this techniques demeans your arguments and makes you look like rampant ideologue. I’d cut back and try your hardest to respect the other side’s opinions as hackneyed as some of them are.

  6. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

    Your framework pits yourself against us. We invite you to consider this alternative.

  7. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

    Your conceptual abstract is perhaps how you would like to frame the dialog. This above is however, the reality of those who occupy the streets today and the way we frame it.

  8. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    Brian, the article “suggests” Obama is behind the occupation(s). That calculation is based upon, well, let’s see. Well based upon, nothing. No. Really, it’s all based upon…. conjecture — the author’s “guess.” So here’s the logic and facts offered: Obviously, if there is a celebrity, a union or community organizing involved… then Obama is involved. Because all three have been observed, Obama is involved. Then, seems you’re asking me to “validate” a negative: you want me to somehow “validate” that Obama… is not involved the occupation? Since I cannot “validate” Obama’s not involved…. it’s done… and certainly all verified: A celebrity? check. A union? check. Community organizing, check. A negative remaining unvalidated? check. I love conservative logic.

    As for anybody needing to justify for you… what will replace destroyed capitalism (fascism or communism?) That’s both an abstract construction and an either or question that you own. Nobody else is stuck with your constructions excepting you of course.

    We might agree however. Does your definition of “capitalists” fit here?

    They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
    They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
    They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
    They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
    They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
    They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
    They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
    They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
    They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
    They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
    They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
    They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
    They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
    They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
    They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
    They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
    They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
    They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
    They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
    They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
    They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.

    If we agree that the above are indeed capitalist’s in dire need of “adjustment” then we’re at least part way into our answering your question.

    • Brian Evans says:

      Anon,
      It appears that we do not agree for there are examples all across the world to where oppression of the people are being conducted by their governments…not bankers or corporations. For even if a politician is paid off, he had to accept it .

      As with the Muslim movement and the kids in these movements, we understand that this radical beliefs have been placed in the minds of useful idiots. The United Nations have placed their Decade of Education on Sustainable Development. This has government written all over it as history has shown the truth and we have been expecting this for several years now.

      But not because of this manufactured “OccupyWallStreet” movement but because the true Tea Party movement was squashed for the same reason. We were expecting this but because you collapse the system, we will be left with radicals who wish to instill tyranny…Hopefully, your in the in crowd but if your talking to us…then its safe to assume that your not.

      There has been no other system that has given more to his fellow man than capitalism. There are victims but none like the victims that have endeared to a tyrannic government stolen by Mao, Hitler or even Stalin under similar circumstances.

    • Lincolon says:

      They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. (SOME foreclosures were illegal and the big end of these were simply foreclosed prematurely.)
      They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. (“Impunity” it just ain’t so.)
      They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. (BS, I’m ready to hire a black, transsexual hermaphrodite with strong homosexual preferences to be my spokesperson for the Cub Scouts of America)
      They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. (Wacko Marxism)
      They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices. (So you folks don’t want to eat chicken, pork or beef, as people have been eating since time immemorial? You’re entitled to your opinion, but cruelty, torture – over the top)
      They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. (This is pro-union double-talk for when they lose their exorbitant pensions, excessively high pay, and Cadillac health benefits and want even more of all that and for us taxpayers to pick up the tab)
      They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. (Hostage? Did someone force you to take the loan? You couldn’t work and save your tuition or go to a less expensive school and forego loans. A right? Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that?)
      They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. (TRUE)
      They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. (Conjecture)
      They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. (Some truth here, how widespread is another story.)
      They have sold our privacy as a commodity. (TRUE)
      They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. (If they’d done that your post wouldn’t have been here, would it?)
      They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. (It happens, is the exception, and is often severely punished.)
      They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. (Oh, capitalism has failed say you sitting in your air-conditioned home, firing out emails on your computer and driving a late model car, I don’t think so, this gets the NONSENSE award)
      They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them. (TRUE)
      They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. (If someone could produce a viable green car, it would sell like hotcakes, same for every other form of energy, this is Marist BS)
      They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit. (Some TRUTH here, parts of capitalism, like any system can get pretty ugly)
      They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. (Gee, and all the other systems in the world are running smooth as glass, right?)
      They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. (So YOU are informing me, somehow I trust them way more than you)

      They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. (So just what is your plan for revamping the legal system? And what Congressional or State representatives have you elected to achieve your goal. We have a system, like any system its got its shortfalls.)
      They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. (No documentation here, moreover, you single out the USA as THE culprit here, so Iran, North Korea and a list infinitum gets a pass?)
      They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. (Let’s see we throw away all the weapons and let North Korea and Iran have ‘em, next plan, please.)

      • DJ Redman says:

        They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. (SOME foreclosures were illegal and the big end of these were simply foreclosed prematurely.) ???

        NOT ONE person who is up to date on mortgage payments is being “illegally foreclosed on” If you took out a mortgage you really couldn’t afford you deserve to be living under a bridge like the rest of the idiots who do not understand that if you want something, you have to work and pay for it in America. Just because there are problems with the paperwork, you do not get evicted or foreclosed upon. It is simple: Pay your mortgage. This kind of ridiculous rhetoric stems from the liberal idea that “everyone deserves a house” crap that Fannie and Freddie were pimping which caused the housing crash. They got their houses under fraudulent qualifications( or none) and lo and behold they can’t actually pay for them! isn’t that strange? Now they want to live in them for free, which isn’t really free as they expect taxpayers to pay for them for them. Sad, moronic Liberal ideology there. Meanwhile they hate the banks for trying to make them pay for the mortgages they signed a contract to do. After all, Liberal morons in Congress like Nancy Pelosi told them they have the “right’ to own a home, regardless of actually being able to pay for it, so now they believe it.

        • Lincoln says:

          Not quite right, foreclosure documents, thousands of them, were forged. Mind had they not be forged, they still likely would have been foreclosed at a later date, but still illegal is illegal.

          • DJ Redman says:

            Yes quite right: Those who have paid up their mortgages are not being “illegally” foreclosed upon. State and federal lending laws prevent that. yes some incompetent mortgage sellers have botched the paperwork, but again no one can be evicted if you pay your mortgage on time.

            Of course if you enter a contract and do not have the proper knowledge, or seek the proper help in understanding exactly what you are signing, then you get what you deserve. The mortgage paperwork problems will eventually be sorted out. Just because someone forgot a notary sttamp on a piece of paper, no one is going to start foreclosure unless you are not paying your mortgage, PERIOD> THAT is the fraud the OWS propagandists are trying to promote.

          • Lincoln says:

            Right on no one who paid mortgage. Not right on the outright FORGERY of foreclosure documents. These were NOT paperwork snafus, not “botched” or paperwork “problems, but criminal forgeries. Moreover, this rush to foreclose, prematurely and illegally, did not afford victims the normal opportunity to possibly save their homes. These are facts. Beyond that, you seem utterly devoid of compassion to those losing their homes. Perhaps when you’re on the wrong end of the mortgage stick some time your perspective will change. Mind you, if folks fail to meet their financial obligations I fully endorse foreclosure, if done legally – point is – many of these were absolutely NOT.

        • Lincoln says:

          And a strange silence came across the land of Redman, things happen that way when the irrefutable, meets irrational anger.

  9. Brian Evans says:

    Anonymous; expect us,
    As your rebuttal does nothing to validate your accusation, you resorted to belittling and name calling. Please validate your comments as they appear to be just rambling.

    Because a bunch of college kids create riots at the urging of 1960s radicals who are now professors (i.e. France Fox-Piven, Bill Ayers and Colonel West) doesn’t justify a astroturb movement. These useful idiots that seem like a mixture of young college kids and 1960s/Woodstock professors can’t even justify what will replace capitalism once its destroyed. Is it Fascism or Communism?

    I smell Soros money somewhere.

    • DJ Redman says:

      EXACTLY Brian! As Friedman asks in the video here, Where are the Angels of Socialism? Just who are they? Name one. But anonymous, while hiding in the dark, apparently didn’t even watch the video.NOTHING has done as much good for mankind as the free market and our system of capitalism, period. Without capitalism, ANON wouldn’t have a computer or mobile device to type that tripe on. Oh and there wouldn’t be any electricity to charge their laptops on out there either.

      The strange thing is that while these wanna-be Socialist Liberals constantly whine and cry about America’s system of the free market, they never pack up and move to Cuba, North Korea, or even Mexico. Why is that? Simply because of the fact that there is no wealth to steal there or “redistribute” as they like to call their theft.

  10. Anonymous; expect us. says:

    The premise if this entire article is flawed: The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. This author ignores the actual positions of the occupiers. Comments like “It simply boils down to…” is the article author’s attempt overlay the author’s ill-fitting framework in her/his assigning fallacious motivation the occupiers of Wall Street.

    The author’s logic offered for inserting Obama into the occupation? Because 5 unions and a couple celebrities supported it? You’ve got to be kidding; does that sort of nexus or logic actually get traction around here? Clearly, if a union or celebrity supports something, then it must be orchestrated by Obama! Seriously?

    The author asserts: “This is also right out of the very same Chicago community organizing handbook that now has inserted a man into our White House. Coincidence? Not hardly, unless you are really naive and totally uninformed today.” Apparently, in this author’s limited political vision, if it’s not promoted and paid for by billionaires Murdoch (Foxed-Up News and media), David and Charles Koch (gas & oil pipelines and refineries), then obviously, that leaves only Obama! (?) Obama does not own “community organizing.” The author’s naivete and disconnect from hands-on experience with community organizing is demonstrated in the implied contention. Obama no more “owns it” if it is community organization than do the Koch brothers “own it” if it is instead bought and paid for. This author’s taking you on the author’s private wild goose hunt to find Obama pulling strings… the implied message that, therefore, you are supposed to dislike it, perhaps be afraid of it.

    But what if Obama really is not involved? What if it really was a dozen young people that had completely had it up to here and decided to initiate a protest camp-out. What would you really be facing this Wednesday, less than a month later, when over 20,000 people across this country and more in other countries, joined them in solidarity? Look, the citizens of this country haven’t reacted for more than a decade to wars they didn’t want, economic policies that screwed them, unemployment, financial manipulation. The token reactions offered them for the last decade have been just that, token, ephemeral, easily dismissed. The people have been somnolent. Think. Hard to imagine after the Tea Party, but what if this occupation were part of an organic process? There are no leaders. There is no Astroturf. There are no spokes-models. There is no agenda. There are no printed signs. There are no billionaire sponsors. There is no umbrella organization. There is no elite paid staff organizing and directing the events. What if all of this truly were a process. What if this is what an organic, intrinsic democracy really looked like? Question is…. would you be less afraid? The financial blogs are beginning to “get it” even as I write this comment: http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/occupy-wall-street-ows-occupy-wall/10/3/2011/id/37170?camp=syndication&medium=portals&from=yahoo